Extending the Art of Healing Through Anthroposophy

Season 1 Ep. 2 Awakening-our-Understanding-of-Illness--100-years-of-Fundamentals-of-Therapy-.mp3

Welcome to extending the Art of healing through Anthroposophy with Doctor Adam Blanning and Laura Scappaticci. Season one is called Awakening Our Understanding of Illness. 100 Years of Fundamentals of Therapy. In episode two, we discuss chapter three of Fundamentals of Therapy. This chapter asks us to expand our perspective on medicine and healing, particularly into the realm of vitality. We discussed the static pictures that are often offered to us through medical tests and chemical analysis. In contrast to the dynamic functions within the body's healing processes, Adam discusses the capacity to self-heal as a mystery unique to living organisms, and what this means to our understanding of health and illness. We hope you're reading along and we look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for listening. Hey, Adam.

Hi, Laura. Nice to see you.

Nice to see you, too. We get to do this again. Pretty exciting.

It is. Yeah.

Yeah. So we get to work with another chapter from this amazing book. Fundamentals of therapy by Rudolf Steiner and Ina Wegman. And we chose to work on chapter three, The Phenomena of Life. So, um, yeah, we've just been brainstorming some of the questions and thoughts we've had about this chapter. And, um, what makes it such like it just goes even deeper than the first one in even fewer pages, which is incredible to me. So it's just packed with these deep thoughts.

Exactly. I don't know if if we could say that anthroposophy has sort of zen little moments or meditations in quite the same concentrated way, um, that you find in other traditions. But this is pretty close. It's a real, yeah, precise kind of distillation, and I'm excited we can talk about it together, because then I think it starts to open. I really feel like these chapters are are gems and they need they need some love and attention and discussion, and then they really start to open in in beautiful ways. And this one's a little bit of a challenge because I think it flips our thinking. Yeah.

Yeah it does. Well let let's let's start with that. I'm just going to read this quote right from the beginning that asks us to flip our thinking like right from the get go. Um, so this quote says within the human body, it is not a question of continuing, but on the contrary of overcoming the reactions observable in the substance while outside the body.

Yeah.

So can you translate that a little bit? Sure.

Well, yeah. Let's do it a couple of ways.

Yeah.

I think one is the idea that if we see that there's a substance that we take in through food, through drinking, through breathing, and then we notice, oh, there's that substance when it comes out of the body, when we urinate, when we have a bowel movement, when we sweat, then we can say, oh, this goes in and this comes out and it's all the same stuff. And I think, um, what's really interesting about this is that when we test for things like this, the way we do it is with a chemical analysis where we really break something down and fix it. And so that that makes us feel like. That static picture, which is really about ratios mostly, or about numbers, um, applies to everything. And I think. Yeah, it's it's it's hard to imagine this inner realm where things are so dynamic. I mean, I was just recently thinking about the heart, and we've got great anatomic pictures of the heart where it's got four chambers and it's got valves, and we kind of know what it looks like, But really, the heart is moving so dynamically all the time. That that picture is false because it's unless it's dead, it's never actually that static form. It's always moving. So I think the, the flip in thinking here is trying to encourage us to say, if we only observe before something goes into the body and observe when something comes out of the body, when it's no longer in this living state, then we're missing some of the picture. Um. And dynamic qualities are so important. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. It's kind of like having a photograph of somebody and being like, this is the person. But when you meet the person, that's the person. There's like, you know. Yeah. And even what? You know, what we're doing here, um, is different. That's like, you know, live camera. But it's still like when you're with the actual person, there is something else going on there. Um, and so it's not, um, it's the living element that he's, that they are both always talking about. What is the living element here. And so they're, they're saying we're getting, like you said, kind of a dead picture. If we just look at what something's like and assume it's the same as it comes in and out, it's like when you've gone through an experience as a person, you're you're insides change, you know, like like something comes towards you, something traumatic. You experience it, you process it. You're not kind of the you're not the same when, when, when that is, um, you know, coming to a conclusion, you may not be the same again. So assuming like a sort of a static, um, quality is. Doesn't make sense.

That's great. That's great. And I think we live in a world with so many pictures and so many kind of fixed representations. We love that. And it's very valuable. But it's it's just one way of seeing. Um, and yeah, you could take a picture of me now and then you could take a picture in a week, and maybe the hair's a little bit different, or the fingernails are a little longer. I don't know, something's slightly changed, but there's been so much activity that happens in that time. Yeah. And we are always changing. It reminds me of other places where it's described how every seven years we've actually turned over all the substance of our body.

Yeah.

Which kind of blows my mind even as I mention it now that, yes, the substance of our bones completely is exchanged and reformed over seven years. And for our blood cells, it's much faster. Instead of years, we measure in days or weeks. So that's really vital. Living quality is in some ways it's so obvious that I think we take it for granted. And then when you try to describe it in a very precise way, which Steiner and Wegman are doing in this chapter, it sounds a little funny, but. We can also look at each other and really sense vitality.

Yeah.

So yeah, we could see each other in a week and say, oh, you look like you've had a really hard week.

Right?

Or you look like you just had a week of vacation. Yeah. Um. Or, um, yeah, maybe you've been ill or maybe you've spent a lot of time in nature. But the measure of vitality, I think we sense that so intuitively, so intrinsically that it's actually there all the time. Yeah.

That's right. And that again, goes back to this etheric, uh, you know, these etheric life forces that we talked about before and this this chapter has a lot of that in there. Um, you can tell when that's getting worn down. I was just who was I talking to? They were oh, they're working with a very young children. And, um, some of these kiddos are just like, on screens, like most of the day. Um, and and it's it's wearing the teacher out, you know, like, it's like they the kids are impacted and then she's impacted and she's like, you know, if I could just stand in a forest for several hours a day. And I was like, yeah, that's what you're trying to rejuvenate. You're trying to rejuvenate what what's kind of being taken from them and then what they're taking from you. And so she does need that rejuvenation there. Yeah. And that's that's in this chapter too. So okay, there's there's so much here. So that just that major concept here is like just because something looks one way before it enters the body doesn't mean it's the same thing when it comes out. And we can measure it the same way and assume like it's just, you know, like an equal transfer from one state to the next from beginning to end. So we have to change that perspective. Am I getting that right?

I think so. There's a there's another place. Well, it's actually the very end of the second chapter.

Where.

There was just one keyword I was reading earlier today, or one phrase, which is about our self-healing processes. Hmm. And so if I, um, if I take in a bunch of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, which is what's in a carbohydrate. Mhm. Um, it has a particular form. And then it's going to come inside of me. And then if you tested what comes out of my body, you could also find carbon hydrogen and oxygen. But when it's in a state outside of me it's not necessarily able to grow and change and repair and heal itself. And when it comes out of me, it can't grow and change and heal itself. So there's something about inside of me and my activity that I can do these things. Um, and so it's really the mystery of how do we heal? Um, and how do we even have that capacity to, to do something new?

Yeah. I think one of the questions you asked is, you know, if I dent my car. Yeah, it doesn't fix itself. Right. But but the the body has this capacity that living creatures have this capacity to self-heal. Um, like when when you heal a wound or like a tree, you know, that grows around, um, something that's like a wire or a fence or a thing, you know, or if it's been hurt or cut, it'll start to mend itself. So these living, living creatures have this ability. But, um, what is that? How does that happen? So. And how do you, as a doctor, you know, and as a medical, um, how does the medical field work with that and really work with that capacity? Um, maybe rather than adding inputs and thinking that's that's how you fix it, there's like, how do you work with the body's possibility of self-healing?

Absolutely. Yeah. I think just just one aspect of that is trying to see, um. If we're trying to make a change, are we starting with fertile soil or are we starting with sand? Because let's say, um, somebody wants to make a life change or needs to make a life change. Even just to recuperate from something and you say, well, here are all the instructions. These are all the things you should do. This will this will help. And I don't know that we look very much to see. Well, are we starting with sand or are we starting with real conditions for life? And what is the vitality that we're beginning with? Um, so I think it's, it's an aspect which is looking very much towards the future of, of what's possible. And. And also trying to cultivate just that vitality so that there's the possibility to build on something. We look a lot at harvesting in medicine. Maybe. Um, or we look a lot at, at the end results of a process. So something happens and we react to it. But the whole realm of how do we proactively support our vitality, support our healthy life rhythms. Um. I think that's kind of an afterthought sometimes, but it's it's probably because of this flip of thinking that we're not so used to because we we'd like to think in these chemical measures, that it's the same inside the body as outside the body. And so to really develop a whole science, let's say, of vitality or a whole science of bringing, bringing health, Salutogenesis is a word that's used for that sometimes. Um, I think that's really a new kind of pioneer activity in some ways. Yeah.

Yeah, I could imagine what a hospital would be like if they were, like, working with the science of vitality. Like it would be such a different sort of space. And I think, I think some places are trying to do that. I remember like what? Like always in the older books that you read in novels, they, they send people away to the country to heal, you know, from whatever they, that's real. There's they're they're sending them to Zurich forces, actually. Right.

They are. Well.

A colleague, Marion Davis, in the medical section, she and I were at a conference recently and she shared, um, a study which showed that I think people who have had a heart attack, if they are in a room where they can see, I think it was grass or trees, if they can see nature outside of their window. Their recovery and their risk of death change in terms of they have more healing forces. They recover better in those situations. So these etheric forces are really a very important part of us. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. Okay. Well, can we talk about this idea of like, things coming from us, like these forces coming from outside and things coming out of us and things coming towards us. This was like this was, you know, a really interesting concept in this chapter. Um, I can I can read this again or you want to if you want to read it as well.

Um. Go ahead.

I think you've got the exact spot. So.

Okay, I think I do. So observations show, after all, that the phenomena of life have an altogether different orientation from those that run their course within the lifeless realm of the latter, we shall be able to say, they reveal that they are subject to forces radiating outward from the essence of material substance. These forces radiate from the relative centre to the periphery, but in the phenomena of life the material substance appears subject to forces working from without inward towards the relative centre.

Right.

So I'm not a physicist, but if we think about gravity. But at least for a long time. I'm not sure why, but I imagined that gravity was something that came from the outside and pushed us down onto the Earth. But really, gravity comes from the center of something and reaches out and pulls in. So I this description of forces that start in the essence of substance and the essence of matter, going out and pulling back towards the center of the earth. Those are really the gravity forces which are very strongly connected to physical substance. And I think any living thing, once it's not in a living state, it goes into this realm of of decay, of withering, of of falling down and going towards the earth. And then these forces which are described etheric forces coming from the periphery. Fascinating. We'd have to say there's something that comes towards us all of the time, sort of unites with our substance and then lifts it back, back towards the periphery. Really, levity is a way that I would think about it. Um, and one of the ways this really came home for me was being in a discussion where people talked about how fluid rises in trees. Because trees go way up in the air.

Right.

And, um, and there's the idea that and I know in different science courses you can practice this. If you have a really tiny tube and you put it in water. Water will go up the tube against gravity. And this works for a certain number of meters or feet, but then it gets maxed out.

Hmm.

But trees grow much taller than that. So to say, oh, there's there's fluid because that the tree doesn't have a pump. It doesn't have something mechanical shooting or pushing this water. It's it's it's moving. It's pulling all the way up towards the periphery, towards the sky, towards the light. And the plant world is doing this all the time. It's taking substance from the earth and enlivening it and lifting. Um. And actually, if you watch a, a child around a year learning to stand, you also can sort of see, oh, there's something really important about this lifting quality. And we're able to do that. We have the ability to take our body and, and move it, um, and liven it all the time. So that was one way I thought about it in terms of these forces. Um, that actually all around us all the time are these life forces, these etheric forces coming in, taking hold and and lifting. The plants are in there somewhere.

Yeah.

Yeah. I was going to say the plants are definitely in there. Right? Because they are. Yeah. The sun is coming down towards them and then they're there. They're growing up to the sun at the same time. Right. So there's this kind of relationship there? Yeah. Hmm. And then go ahead. Were you going to say something else or just.

Well, there's one thought that popped up.

Kind of. Yeah.

I saw it.

I saw a little a little levity moment, um.

Which is that there's a there's a plant that I've grown in my garden, which is, um, lovage levisticum, which is really good for earaches.

Mhm.

But it's a plant that grows so fast. And in the late spring there's a certain phase where I would look at it, um, and say, oh it's this height. And then the next day I would look at it and say I think that grew an inch.

Aha.

But but I wasn't sitting here watching. And when I sit there watching. I can't see it growing. But then the next day. You know, at a certain point, I would go up and stand next to it and measure on myself. Okay. It's it's right here.

It's right.

It's right at my collarbone. I'm going to see what it is tomorrow or the next day. And it could really grow an inch or two in a day. Um, and this reminds me a little bit of when we were talking about substance inside the body and outside of the body, that if I just look once a day, it's hard for me to appreciate how much change in vitality has happened. Um, even though it's incredible and it's continuous.

Right? Yeah.

I think that plant is like my, um, teenage son.

Sure.

He wakes up in the morning. I'm like, You grew overnight. I can just see it and maybe it's just a teeny bit, but I know, and I know, like in one year he grew like six inches, you know, and in eighth grade I was just watching that. That thing happened. He'd get up in the morning and I'd be like, you're taller than I am now. This just happened, and now you're even taller, and now you're as tall as your dad. And it just just this, this force of, I don't know. Yeah. Defying gravity.

Yeah.

And it's hard to imagine how that just happens by the molecules of hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. Like changing themselves.

Right?

There's really a formative activity that's happening there.

Yeah.

Exactly. And it's fine to look at those molecules. And, you know, that's what he's kind of they say in the first chapter, you know, it's like, yes okay. Physical science what we've got in medicine so far. Good. You know, you shouldn't even do this if you shouldn't even really, like, try to go down this path if you don't have this kind of foundation. But also let us go further. Let us go further. Let's expand. And that's what that's what he's doing here. And they're asking us to think about things differently again, yet again.

Yeah.

So good. Yeah.

I have a hunch that's going to happen every time we talk about one of these chapters.

Yes, exactly.

We're going to stretch our thinking.

Yeah.

So what happens when when there's like an overabundance of gravity. You said something about the liver maybe.

Can you talk about that I did yes.

Does that come in here.

It does.

Yeah.

It comes it comes a little bit um, towards the end of the chapter. Where Steiner and Wegman are speaking about how The plant world. Is really bathed is is completely active in these etheric forces. I mean, we could really say a plant grows in time because it is working with these etheric life forces. And then he says that for the individual human being, we have our own etheric body, an individualized body of life forces, which we could really recognize that that comes at birth.

Mhm. Um.

Before birth in the womb, a child's etheric forces and parents etheric forces, mother's etheric forces are so intertwined that I don't think you can distinguish them. But after birth, um, that child could be cared for in lots of different ways, lots of different places, and it's going to have its own vitality. But when he speaks here about how we have this individualized etheric and it may be working out of particular organs or particular places like the lung or liver, it reminded me of some of the classic experiences that happen with a liver depression. And in anthroposophic medicine, you can actually look at something like depression and see there are shades of it that are related to different organs. Which is it's different than anything I learned in medical school.

Yeah, that's super interesting.

Yeah.

But the liver is an organ which is very intimately bound with this vitalizing and enlivening of substance. It's an organ which has lots and lots of different fluids flowing through it. Um, it's an organ which you can have an operation and take out a large percentage of the liver, like 75 or 80%, and it will grow back.

I mean, wow. I did not know.

Self-healing forces.

Wow. Um.

You can't really do that. Other places in the body.

Huh?

The liver will will regenerate in an amazing way. And when the liver is really out of balance, then sometimes we can have this experience of a depression which has a very strong gravity experience. Of. I'm so tired. I'm so fatigued. It's really hard for me to initiate new activities, even if I know it's a good thing to do, and I can feel it's a good thing to do to actually get started. It becomes very hard. And sometimes it can have the feeling of like wading in molasses a little bit, something very thick. And one of the questions I find very helpful if, if from a medical side, I kind of suspect maybe maybe the liver does need some help is to say, does it feel like you have more gravity than the other people around you? Like there's a machine over your head that's giving you 2 or 3 times normal gravity. And very often in that situation, somebody will say, How do you know that? That's exactly what it feels like. And I think that's some reflection of this individualized etheric and how it can be, um, imbalanced or affected in something like a depression.

Thank you. Yeah. What a question to ask somebody. They could definitely relate to that. Like that. That heaviness. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then that's connected to it. And one of our organs is. Yeah, definitely a different way of thinking about it and talking about it. Um, rather than assuming it's, um, solely connected to what we call mental health. Right. I mean, now I feel like people are connecting mental health with, like, the gut biome and things like that. More than they had in the past. Like, they just kind of maybe, you know, weren't connecting it to the the physical body in such a way, even though they might treat it with, um, a prescription that impacts the brain or the physical body. But I yeah, this is different. Um, the way that you're framing it.

Yeah.

And I don't think it precludes the fact that we can see changes in the brain. We can see changes in our nervous system.

Yes.

Because our nervous system is also a kind of representation or reflection of what's happening in the body.

Mhm.

So we could look and say, oh, the neurotransmitters in our brain are out of balance.

And.

We can affect those.

Right.

Um But in, let's say, more traditional or conventional treatment of depression, usually you use a medication. And I think this adds a level of insight which can really be so helpful. It doesn't have to be either or either.

Right.

Yes.

But exactly this kind of, um, insight of how do I not just chemically change something, but can we give support that actually shifts and supports vitality? I think it taps more into the self-healing capacity again.

Right.

And something like actually dandelion is a great thing for the liver.

Right. Which if.

If we go back to the plant world.

Yes.

You know. You can see how a dandelion changes in the course of a day.

Yeah. Um.

Such vitality. Such vitality. Continuously changing. A sprout. A yellow flower. The white puff of seeds. I mean, I must admit, I have not sat there for an entire day and watched that process. Though that might be.

Fun to.

Do.

Um.

But but to see how the dandelion does this continually. How it grows between the cracks and the cement. Uh, there's such striving in that plant, and it loves these etheric forces so much. That we can say, oh, that's that's something that is in resonance, is in harmony, is in relationship with this vitalizing aspect of our own liver.

Huh?

That makes so much sense, you know, to to link the plant with, um, with the organ in that way, to observe the plant and be like, ah, this plant seems to be connected to this, you know, this force.

Oh, it's so beautiful. Yeah. Mhm.

This is where you get all excited and.

Say, yeah these.

Are my friends.

These are my friends.

Right.

Mm.

There is a part of um not just medical training but agriculture I mean lots of different places of a specific exercise of really carefully observing a plant. Looking at the details as much as you can and then drawing it. And then what's really nice is to try to imagine what will it look like three weeks from now.

Mhm.

And what will it look like six weeks from now and six months from now. And then what's, what's not so easy is to think about what did it look like three weeks ago.

Mhm.

And this kind of enlivened thought movement where it's almost like you're sculpting something. That's that's really beautifully showing these etheric forces in time as well.

Mhm.

Yeah I hadn't, I've done sort of. And anybody that's listening if you want to try this plant observation um that you just talked about Adam, it's so great to sit with a plan and draw it. And even if you can do it for three consistent days or, you know, like, make the commitment.

Yeah.

It's really powerful. But I hadn't thought of like the what will it look like in, you know, six days, six weeks, six months or whatever? What did it look like before? Like really having that connection to it over time? I mean, I guess I do that with my kids, I think. What what were they like six years ago? What are they going to be like? Right. I'm not really doing that. It'd be so interesting to do that with a plant. So I think that's a great invitation to people that are listening to find a plant and hang out with it. And then like for me, I really developed a relationship I was with. I was with a live oak tree, which is not a plant, like a little plant or a flower or a dandelion, but a big, big tree and just hung out with it and got to know it for a while and drew it. And that was really special. I mean, I can I'm not near that tree anymore, sadly, but I still have that feeling of it really inside me, like I would a person, like I would a person. If I would go back, I would say, oh, you're taller now. Um, and this change and this, you know, in this the same way.

Yeah, I.

Think that's it exactly.

Yeah.

And that gave me so much, um, that really, like, bolstered my etheric, like my life force being with that. That plan. Yeah.

Yeah.

There was a whole set of research about forest bathing.

Yeah.

Really? I think in Japan, it's been studied the most. What what happens on so many levels of health when we go into nature and. And also nothing is competing for our attention in that setting.

Right.

But being in a forest and. Yeah, being companioned by by plants, by trees which are so actively living in these interplay of physical forces and etheric forces.

Right.

Really very special.

I like how you said companioned by a tree. Like, that's a really neat way of talking about it. And it is that forest bathing is a treatment for depression. Like they they recommend it as a treatment for depression, is my understanding.

They do. And at one point I was researching forest bathing. And at a certain point I gave up because I found studies that show it's helpful for high blood pressure. It's helpful for different immune markers. It's helpful for cholesterol as a stress hormone. It's kind of a list of so many different things that we could say improve with more vitality, with, with enlivening, with, with a chance to do some of this self-healing activity.

Right.

But at a certain point, I said, okay, I don't have to keep documenting all of those things that it's good for because it seems this is helpful, all kinds of levels.

Right?

Yeah.

It's obvious. Yes. For everything. Just prescribe it.

Right? Right.

No side effects. No negative side effects.

Well, sometimes your.

Shoes get muddy, but, um.

I think that's all right. Yes. That's good. Can you imagine if all the pharmaceutical ads became ads for forest bathing places you could go.

Like, wow.

You have. Let's do that.

Yeah. The thing is, self-healing is I don't know that it's so marketable because.

There's not much.

Profit.

It's giving the healing back to us.

Right? Yes.

Right.

How many times are we told we need something from the outside to be well?

Right.

When really, we've got this incredible individual set of life forces.

Right. I'll just. I'll just read that quote at the end about the.

Individual.

Set of life forces. It says. Thus we. Thus we shall have to say, humans spare the etheric within them in an individualized form, as they carry the physical in the Individualized form of their physical body and its organs. So too with the etheric. They have their own special etheric body as they have the physical. And then in sleep, this etheric body remains united with the physical. And gives it life. It only separates from it in death.

Yeah. And we we don't talk so much about the body after death. But this was another experience of of absolutely feeling. The truth of these things is to see someone just after death. Where you can have the feeling. Oh, is this really true? It looks like they could take a breath. Maybe they're just not breathing for a moment and they're going to take a breath. But then if you see the body hours later or a day later, and certainly three days later, you see, oh, this is different. This is substance. This is this is a husk. Um, and that these etheric forces slowly release over those hours and days right after death. So conceptually, when sometimes the flip of thinking is difficult, I think when you have these experiences and they are so powerful and so true, then this actually is very reassuring because it gives a description and a context for, for what we see just in life.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay, well, is there anything else we want to get to in this chapter? We hope people will read it seven times like like the first one and go deeper into it.

Yeah. I would say if you really wanted to practice this a little bit, try to find a plant that has both a sprouting part of it and something that's withering.

Mhm. Mhm.

And it's a really interesting exercise. Or have two plants, one sprouting, one withering. And really just try to observe them and observing and then closing your eyes and kind of coming back. You have different sensations, different different experiences. So I think that is a really nice way to consciously come into the realm of the etheric.

Yeah.

Great. Well, that's a great invitation for everyone. So I'm thinking of my geranium out front that has like some parts of it are fading away. And then there's like a blossom forming too. So that could be a good, good plant to observe.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, thank you, Adam. And I can't wait to get to the next chapter.

And keep going. I think we're gonna we're.

Going to jump to chapter five.

Great.

Boy, if we're thinking about how our our thought process can move, it's a really exciting chapter because we're going to.

Okay. That's great.

We're going to see how substance moves. And yeah, look forward to the rest of this podcast series.

Yeah, it's exciting. And I think I'm just so glad it's coming right now because we need new ways of thinking and new ways of healing. Um, just overall in the world. So it's perfect timing for it.

We do, we do.

And I want to say if if you enjoyed this podcast series, the medical section has a circle of friends, which is there really to try and support exactly this kind of work and conversation and outreach with each other. Um, and so we would appreciate your support and look forward to continuing these kinds of projects in the future.

And thank you, Laura.

This is so great to do this together.

Oh, well, thank you for inviting me in. And and how do I get to the circle of friends? How do I find it? I'll put the link in the show notes, but great.

The easiest is medical section. Dot Goetheanum g o e t e n u dot.

Great.

And that's where we'll find the circle of friends that are supporting this kind of thing. Getting the word out about this medicine, the different kinds of healing. Yes. Okay.

Perfect.

That's that's the medical section website. And you can see what other programs are going on. And I think if you click support it'll take you to the Circle of Friends page.

Perfect.

Okay. Looking forward to chapter five and being with you and with everybody listening again. And we'll we'll talk to you then.

Okay.

Thanks so.

Much. Thanks.